Is this fair?
Jewish Studies August 28th, 2012After reading Perek 16 in Bereshit, please answer:
(i) Is Sarai being fair to Hagar? Justify your answer.
(ii) How does the Torah treat Hagar? Why do you think this happens?
(iii) You can choose to be either in Avram’s or Sarai’s shoes – what would YOU do in this situation?
August 28th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
1) No. Because Sarai should let Hagar have her say whether she is happy to do it. But Hagar is the maid and she should do what Sarai tells her.
2) i think the Torah doesn’t treat Hagar with any respect because all Hagar was just trying to do her job as the maid but now she has to have a baby with Avram.
3) (Avram’s) I would have the baby with Hagar as long as Sarai and I raise the baby together as our own and Hagar is ok with that.
By Charlie Gross
August 28th, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Hi Charlie,
we hope you are feeling better – we missed you during our Torah discussions today!!! well done for checking out the blog & responding so quickly!
here are a few more things to think about…
1) even though Hagar is a maid, does this mean she is not entitled to her opinion & to share her thoughts? (do you remember the midrash about Hagar’s background?)
2) what makes you say the Torah is not treating Hagar with respect?
3) why would you (Avram) go ahead & have a baby with Hagar? (Charlie, if you have a Tanach/Chumash at home, read the rest of Perek 16 & see if there’s any further information there that may help you justify your answer!)
m.d.
August 28th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
i) I don’t think Sarai is being fair to Hagar because it sounds like Sarai ordered Hagar to have a baby with a husband. And in the Torah Hagar doesn’t get a say in whether she’d like to or not. And after Hagar had done what Sarai had told her to do, Sarai started treating Hagar very harshly. But Hagar was only doing what Sarai told her to do!
ii) I think the Torah is treating Hagar unfairly because she’s just Sarai’s maid. No one important. And Hagar just gets pushed around with no say in what’s going on. Because no one cares about what Hagar has to say. She’s just Sarai’s maid.
iii) (Avram) I would (instead of telling Sarai to deal with Hagar) help out, but not get involved. I would tell Sarai to stop being so harsh on Hagar as it’s not Hagar’s fault! It’s Sarai’s. I would also tell Hagar not to worry about Sarai as she’s just upset that there’s a baby on the way.
August 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
hi Bunny,
what reasons do you think Sarai may have had for treating Hagar harshly, even though Hagar had only done what Sarai had told her to do?
do you think that Hagar is not important?
do you (Avram) think this is all Sarai’s fault?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 5:21 pm
I think Sarai started treating Hagar really harshly because Sarai’s jealous of Hagar because Hagar is ABLE to have children, and because Hagar DID have a child with Avram, Sarai’s husband. And I think that treating Hagar harshly is just a way of letting out all of Sarai’s jealousy and anger.
I actually don’t think that Hagar is that important. As a human being of course! She still has feelings and all. And her opinion is still very important! But the role she plays in the Torah isn’t that important. She is just Sarai’s maid who had a child with Avram, under Sarai’s orders.
(Avram) I think it is everyone’s fault. But why everybody did what they did in that situation, revolves around Sarai. Like I did what I did (which was having a baby with Hagar) because I wanted children. But it was Sarai’s idea for me to have a baby with Hagar, and if it was Sarai’s idea, I would obviously think that that’s what Sarai wanted. And Hagar did what she did (which was have a baby with me) because Sarai ordered her to. Hagar has to obey Sarai as Sarai is her boss. Maybe if Sarai had said to me, ‘I don’t feel comfortable with you having a child with my maid’ I probably wouldn’t have done it. But Sarai didn’t say that to me, so how was I supposed to know!?!
August 30th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Bunny, you have sooooo much to share. i really enjoy reading your comments as it helps me to think in different ways and about things i hadn’t considered before!
do you think that the way Sarai treated Hagar, even though you empathise with her (Sarai’s) situation, was right?
so you don’t think that Hagar has that important a role in the Torah…hmmmm…not sure i agree with you. i hope the rest of 6G read our conversation & also share their thoughts!
i appreciate the fact that as Avram, you are taking some responsibility for your actions. what do you think would have happened if you had said no to Sarai’s suggestion?
m.d.
August 28th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
1. no. it’s only fair if Hagar has her say and she can inquire and think about it, rather than being forced to do it.
2. i don’t think the Torah is treating Hagar fair because they are sort of upgrading her job. now instead of being a normal maid like she was before all of this came up, now she has to be a half mother and have a baby with Avram.
3.if i was Hagar, i would start a fight with Sarai and tell her i should have my say about having a baby with my client.
August 28th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
hi Daliya,
what reasons do you think Hagar may have had for agreeing with Sarai’s plan for her to have a baby with Avram?
also, what do you mean by a half mother? why do you think this is happening?
why would you start a fight with Sarai if you were Hagar? why can’t you just talk to her? by the way, you were supposed to be either Sarai or Avram for the last part of the blog response. who would you be & how would you behave?
August 29th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
1) I think that Hagar should have a say if she wants to have a child with Avram, although I think that she would not care much because she wouldn’t have followed them out of Egypt and she would have disagreed with her father, the Paroh who wanted her to go.
2) I am pretty sure that Hagar would have talked in that time, but I think that the Torah left her voice out because if she said something, she probably would have said something like, “oh, o.k. I am your maid so I work for you and I do what you say”.
3) Sarai wants me to have a child with her maid. Hashem promised me that I will have a nation and so I am getting one. I am finding it a bit weird and awkward, but that is life. She (Sarai) is doing me a favour so that is good. And she has already done me a favour so that makes me really happy. The favour she did for me is that she lied to the Paroh (who is the father of Hagar) that we were brother and sister.
August 29th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
hi Sash!
why do you think that Hagar should have a say about whether or not to have a child with Avram?
i was very interested to read your comment that you think Hagar did say something, but the Torah doesn’t tell us – do you think that’s fair? why do you think it’s not included?
as Avram, why are you finding the situation a bit awkward & weird? what do you think about the fact that Hashem has promised you a nation & Sarai is helping…???
m.d.
August 29th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
1. I think Sarai isn’t being fair because you can’t just tell someone go have a baby with your husband without her getting to say anything. She is her maid, but asking her to do something like that is completely different.
2. I think Hagar isn’t getting treated fairly by the Torah. Yes, she’s Sarai’s maid, but it’s not everyday when you ask your maid to have a baby with your husband and she may not even want to.
3. (Sarai) I would be a bit upset that my husband is having a baby with someone else, but Hashem promised he would make him a great nation so he has to start the nation somehow.
August 29th, 2012 at 8:42 pm
hi Dana,
what reasons do you think there may be for the Torah (possibly) treating Hagar (so far) unfairly?
also, as Sarai, if it’s your idea for Hagar to have a baby with Avram, why are you now upset?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
1. Sarai is not being fair to Hagar because she is not treating her fairly.
2. The Torah treats Hagar like she is acting like a child, the angel says to her go back to Sarai because the Torah doesn’t want Avram and Sarai to loose their baby.
3. If I was Avram I would go talk to Hagar and say, please don’t be upset by my wife’s actions.
August 30th, 2012 at 7:31 pm
hi Gabe,
1) what makes you say that Sarai is not treating Hagar fairly?
2) how does the Torah treat Hagar like a child?
3) a man of few words – how do you think this would help the situation? is there anything you could do? or would do differently if you could go back?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
I think Sarai is being unfair to Hagar because she isn’t treating her with respect. I think the Torah is being fair to Hagar because in the end she will have many offspring. If i was Avram i would say are you ok.
August 30th, 2012 at 7:48 pm
what makes you say that Sarai is not treating Hagar with respect?
as Avram, who would you be saying are you ok to & why?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 7:13 pm
1. maybe because she (Hagar) wanted to have a baby but she wasn’t married, but she wanted to have a baby with someone!
2. what i mean by half mother is Hagar is the REAL mother,(because she helped have the baby) but because Avram is the father and he is married to Sarai, Sarai is the half mother and Hagar is the OTHER half mother.
3. true… i would have a heart to heart talk with Sarai telling her i wasn’t okay with helping make the baby but without disappointing her. (i was Hagar.)
August 30th, 2012 at 8:13 pm
hi Daliya,
for 3 – you were supposed to be either Avram or Sarai. what would you do if you were either of them? thanks for your thoughts about what Hagar could do!
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 7:30 pm
1. I don’t think its fair that Sarai treated Hagar that way. I think Hagar is probably a lovely woman, (I think) and Sarai told Avram to have a baby with Hagar and now all of a sudden Sarai gets all angry with Hagar.
2.I think the Torah treated Hagar badly because she didn’t get to have a say. I wonder why she didn’t say anything before she ran away.
3.(Sarai) I guess I was a little hard on Hagar. Maybe I should go find her and then apologise to her for acting so rudely. She can also help Avram and I to raise the baby.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
hi Tay,
what makes you think that Hagar is ‘probably a lovely woman’?
can you try to answer your wonder? (hopefully someone else in 6G will too…) why doesn’t Hagar say anything before she runs away?
as Sarai, why were you hard on Hagar? how would you feel, if Hagar helps you to raise the baby?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
(i) I don’t think that Sarai is being fair to Sarai because Hagar has got no say in this. She is forced to have a baby with Avram and then after having no choice to do this she is being treated harshly.
(ii) I think the Torah doesn’t treat Hagar right because it makes her look like no-body and not getting a say and just being thrown around like she isn’t even a person just a “thing”
(iii) (Sarai) I probably would apologise to Hagar for being too harsh when Hagar was forced into this. I would probably be a bit jealous but sometimes you’ve just got to be self-less and think about other’s (after reading Morah D and Bunny’s conversation I would never have thought of that but the more I think about it the more I think Bunny’s right
)
August 30th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
hi Brodie,
yay – i’m so pleased! someone is reading the comments, not only adding their own. now we can really have a discussion, even though we’re not in the classroom!!!
that’s great that reading someone else’s thoughts & opinions has helped shape your thoughts too!!
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
1. I don’t think Sarai is being fair to Hagar. Just because Hagar is able to have babies doesn’t mean that Avram is going to love Hagar more than Sarai because Avram married Sarai which means Avram obviously will always love Sarai more than anyone else in the world.
2.I think the Torah treats Hagar like this is because G-D made a promise to Hagar that she will have as many children as the stars, so she had to go and face Sarai and to toughen up to face Sarai.
3.(Avram) I am not sure what I am going to do with Hagar (Sarai’s maid) but Sarai told me to so I am going to do it for my love for her. G-D promised me that I will have as many children as the stars so I guess this is partly what I have to do to help because Sarai can’t have babies. Hagar is pregnant right now and Sarai is being really mean to her but I don’t know what to do with Hagar so I will leave it to Sarai to figure out because she got us into this mess so she works it out.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:46 pm
hi Gabi!
why have you (as Avram) decided to leave it to Sarai to figure out a solution? i understand that it was her plan, but what about helping her solve the problem – you are her husband after all!!
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:34 pm
i don’t understand why Hagar doesn’t have a say in this. Shouldn’t everybody have a say? so i think it is not fair to Hagar that she is not allowed her opinion.
well i don’t see what the Torah is doing, besides making Hagar go back to a mean and jealous Sarai.
in Avram’s shoes i would just go with the flow because there is still a promise to be rewarded and why not? what is there to lose and it is a rare chance of any consequences
August 30th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
hi Ryley,
by the way, i agree – i don’t think it’s fair for someone not to be allowed an opinion. how do we know for sure though that Hagar hasn’t shared her opinion, just for some reason the Torah doesn’t tell us this? which leads me to my next question, why do you think we only read about Hagar being made to go back to ‘a mean and jealous Sarai’?
ask yourself, as both Avram & as you, the question you raise in your last comment – what is there to lose? what possible consequences may there be from following through with Sarai’s plan?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:37 pm
1. I think Sarai isn’t being fair because you can’t just tell someone go have a baby with your husband without her getting to say anything. I think she thinks she is the boss of Avram.
2. I think the Torah does not treat Hagar properly because she hardly get a say.
3. Sarai – I would say sorry to Hagar and as a gift take her back to Egypt. I think she should say sorry to Avram for being mean.
August 30th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
hi Gad,
what makes you say that you think Sarai thinks she is the boss of Avram?
does someone not having a say a sign of not being treated fairly? why??
do you think that Hagar would want to go back to Egypt? why?
who should say sorry to Avram for being mean?
m.d.
August 30th, 2012 at 9:11 pm
1. No, Sarai is being unfair to Hagar. It’s unfair because Sarai forces her maid to have a baby with Avram even though none of them say yes or agree Sarai.
2. I think the Torah told Hagar to go back because she is still Sarai’s maid and she has nowhere else to go in the desert and to make Hagar trust in our g-d as Jews.
3. Avram – I would try and help out or just let Sarai fix it because it is her mess. She should be able to fix it, not always rely on someone else to fix her problems.
August 30th, 2012 at 9:15 pm
hi Tali,
even though Hagar doesn’t say yes, how do we know that she does agree to do what Sarai suggests?
why do you think it may be important for Hagar to trust in Hashem?
do you really think (Avram) that Sarai relies on others to fix her problems?
m.d.
September 4th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
She agreed by granting Sarai’s request.
It important because maybe that is the only person she could trust after being treated so badly by Sarai with no help from Abram.
I do think she does because she has goes to me asking what should she do with her maid, instead of making her own decision. She had to wait for me to her to make her own decision.
August 30th, 2012 at 9:59 pm
1. I don’t think that Sarai is being fair to Hagar at all because you shouldn’t be really mean to someone just because you are jealous.
2. I don’t think that the Torah treated Hagar very nicely because she was thrown around and told what to do. She also didn’t get a say on what she wanted to do.
3. (Avram) I think that it’s okay to have a child with Hagar so that I will have lots of kids, like Hashem promised me. But only if both Sarai and Hagar is okay with it as well.
August 31st, 2012 at 7:23 am
hi Gabs,
what do you mean by Hagar was thrown around? Do you think she didn’t get a say at all, or just that the Torah doesn’t share with us what she said?
as Avram – isn’t it a bit obvious that there is a porblem with having a child with Hagar…how could you help solve the tension & stress between Sarai & Hagar?
m.d.
August 31st, 2012 at 8:06 am
1. No, Sarai is not being fair! Sarai CAME UP with the idea and then got ANGRY at Hagar for obeying her! (Sarai)!
2. Personally, I don’t think the Torah is treating her well! First she starts as (possibly) royalty in Egypt, then she is turned into a servant. THEN she is turned into a mother without getting a say. AND THEN she gets treated like a slave and she runs away! NO! I really don’t think the torah treats her well!
3. If I was in Avram’s shoes I would ask Sarai if she thought the whole thing through. If she knew the consequences…because if she did, she probably wouldn’t of asked me (Avram) to do that with Hagar!
August 31st, 2012 at 8:27 am
hi Sahar,
always good to read your ‘passionate’ comments!
what makes you think that Sarai hadn’t thought the whole thing through & considered the consequences??
m.d.
August 31st, 2012 at 3:44 pm
The reason I say Sarai didn’t think it through is because if she had considered the consequences she should have known jealousy was one of the main consequences and she didn’t think about what Hagar might do! (even though Hagar didn’t do anything) SHE REALLY should have thought about EVERYTHING that could’ve happened
August 31st, 2012 at 7:06 pm
do you always consider the consequences of everything you say or do??
m.d.